Gender: Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 685 Status: User
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject:
Thinking about the topic of video games as literature, I keep thinking about Blizzard games. Warcraft, Diablo, and Starcraft. All three of these franchises have a ridiculous amount of lore and story to them, and I think it's arguable that the Warcraft universe in particular has the most extensive lore ever created in the medium.
Gender: Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 5942 Status: User
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject:
I heard of a game coming out next month with enough story and backstory to fill a multitude of games, movies, and books. I'd get the name of it but I'm tired and don't want to get up.
Gender: Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 6077 Status: Moderator
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject:
Mass Effect? _________________ Come into my den let me hear you cluck
You can be my hen and we can f(Bu-GAWK)
A bite to the leg, it's time to play
Baby, let me be your egg that needs to get laid.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
"The Chicken of Lust"
Gender: Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 2488 Status: User Location: I drive real fast, I'm gonna last.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:18 am Post subject:
robert goulet wrote:
what is...art?
video games are a lot less personal than movies or poetry or paintings or what have you. if the art is good the viewer can usually feel a connection with the artist, or at the very least distinguish something personal about the work. dunno how many people have felt that with video game. because of the complex and consumer-based nature of video game production, i doubt a lot of creative minds would choose video games as a form of expression.
if that sounded dumb im tired sorry
While that's very much the truth in many cases, there's certainly no reason that it has to be. If anything, video games have the potential to provide even a more personal experience, since you have to directly participate in the narrative, rather than looking at it from the outside.
I just got done playing Metal Gear Solid 2 for the first time. Now, I know full well that the plot is silly and contains a number of groan-worthy twists. But looking at the game's artistic quality from solely a narrative standpoint is missing the point. After all, it isn't a book. Additionally, looking at its artistic quality from a perspective of music, visuals, story, and acting is also missing the point, because it's not a movie or play either. What you also have to take into consideration is how it interacts with the player, and how the player interacts with it, because this is the distinguishing trait that separates video games from every other medium, and it's here that the game really and truly shines.
The best example of it is the very end of the game, where roles get reversed and the game actually controls you, instead of vice-versa. Right before the end boss fight, you learn that everything you've been doing the entire game has been a sham, that you've been lied to, and that the real enemy of the game wants you to fight the end boss, and that doing so will further the enemy's goals.
At this point, you are presented with two options: fight the end boss like you're being told to do, or don't and prove your freedom from the system that's been manipulating you all game. Not actively trying to beat the boss will get you killed, earning you a game over screen which you have been conditioned through your playing of MGS2 and other video games to want to avoid, and will additionally have terrible consequences for some characters in the plot of the game. Or, you could turn the console off and not play the game, proving that you as a person won't be manipulated into a boss fight just because a video game tells you to do it. However, the vast majority of people also won't do this, because despite the fact that they "win" by doing so, they don't get the satisfaction of beating the end boss and seeing the ending cutscene of the game. Therefore, the vast majority of people will go through with the boss fight, allowing Raiden to get manipulated by The Patriots and themselves to get manipulated by Metal Gear Solid 2 and basic conventions of video gaming. By doing so, the player becomes a part of the narrative, because they just proved The Patriots' point that with proper conditioning, anybody can be forced to do anything. In some ways, you now also have a personal stake in beating The Patriots, because they can control you even though you're beyond the reach of their fictional control. The game of course has the last laugh in that matter, however, by having Snake refuse to let Raiden come with him, and here some five years later I'm still waiting for MGS4 to come out so that me and Raiden can get revenge for being controlled. I'm hesitant to treat Hideo Kojima like some sort of god in the flesh like some of his creepier fans, but I have to admit that the way he plays with audience expectations and gaming conventions in MGS2 is at times pretty damn clever.
tl;dr: MGS2 proves that video games have the ability to allow for a kind of interaction with the audience that simply isn't possible in any other medium, and proper use of this can lead to something really artful. _________________
Gender: Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 1226 Status: User Location: A valley full o' Pioneer.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:48 am Post subject:
Mushroom Pie wrote:
Therefore, the vast majority of people will go through with the boss fight, allowing Raiden to get manipulated by The Patriots and themselves to get manipulated by Metal Gear Solid 2 and basic conventions of video gaming. By doing so, the player becomes a part of the narrative, because they just proved The Patriots' point that with proper conditioning, anybody can be forced to do anything.
I've never played MGS2, but here are my thoughts. To me it sounds a lot like the "But thou must!" trope played relatively straight. I suppose it's something of an inversion, since you're usually forced to do the "right" thing to be allowed to continue (for example, in Dragon Warrior, when the Dragonlord asks you to join him, you can either do it and take the Game Over, or refuse and continue playing -- or the original "No." "But thou must!" "No." "But thou must!" "No." "But thou must!" also from Dragon Warrior), but it's basically the same thing. Either you follow the plot or you lose. (I came up with this analogy earlier: It's sort of like acting in a movie you don't know the plot of and getting to the twist ending. If you don't like it, you either keep acting and see how it turns out or quit; beyond that, there isn't much you can do. Of course, I came up with this after midnight, so it's probably going to sound a lot stupider when I read it tomorrow. I apologize in advance.) There are definitely some good subversions of this, and I think it's a lot easier to subvert in games that have more than one possible plot (a similar situation in KoTOR II comes to mind, in which both the "right" and "wrong" choices allow you to continue playing the game). I think, though, that more than being a "point that with proper conditioning, anybody can be forced to do anything," a better argument could probably be made (assuming, probably correctly, that there's some lampshade hanging going on) that Kojima is saying, "This is what video gaming is." (I just had visions of a gang of New Critics jumping me for writing that. I think it's getting late. . .) Which leads me to my next point:
Quote:
The best example of it is the very end of the game, where roles get reversed and the game actually controls you, instead of vice-versa.
I disagree with you here, in that I don't really see this as a reversal. That's, more or less, how video games work. You, the player, are manipulated into doing whatever it is the game is about. There aren't, to my knowledge, any video games that allow you to do whatever you want; in any game you are limited (and therefore, to some extent, controlled) by the "world" of the game. So really, I don't think MGS2 is any more or less "controlling" than any other game; it just has a plot twist that highlights that fact rather nicely.
Anyway, as I already said, it's getting late. At some point I'll probably try to add something that makes sense to this thread, since it's been pretty interesting. _________________ Married to Terri.
Gender: Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 6077 Status: Moderator
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:17 am Post subject:
THIS POST CONTAINS A BIOSHOCK SPOILER SO DON'T READ IT GOULET YOU SLOW PLAYING JERK
Der wrote:
Quote:
The best example of it is the very end of the game, where roles get reversed and the game actually controls you, instead of vice-versa.
I disagree with you here, in that I don't really see this as a reversal. That's, more or less, how video games work. You, the player, are manipulated into doing whatever it is the game is about.
I'm gonna have to agree with Der on this one. It's like in Bioshock, when you kill Andrew Ryan. The game may have convinced you that it's the right thing to do, even though you find out it's not, but whether or not you thought it was right or not, you still had to do it. Bioshock offered no alternatives. Either you killed Andrew Ryan, or you didn't progress past Hephaestus. In retrospect, that kinda bothered me. If Bioshock had let you make the decision to trust or distrust Atlas and the narrative actually changed because of it, that would've been truly awesome. Instead, your character did everything he was supposed to do, and the only decision you could make was killing girls or saving them, with saving them being very obviously the best choice. Sure, you might get twice as much ADAM by killing them, but Tennenbaum gives you ADAM-laced teddy bears for every 3 you save, as well as tonics and plasmids you can't get anywhere else.
Bioshock's a fun game, don't get me wrong, and it looks spectacular... but all the hype about moral decisions and choices was pretty overwrought. The only choice you make is the ending movie you want to see, if any at all. _________________ Come into my den let me hear you cluck
You can be my hen and we can f(Bu-GAWK)
A bite to the leg, it's time to play
Baby, let me be your egg that needs to get laid.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
"The Chicken of Lust"
Gender: Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 2135 Status: User Location: goodness I have dropped the constitution
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:56 am Post subject:
Well there's the thing, you see, for the majority of the game you're not presented with any choices because as far as the story is concerned your character is not able to make them.
I can see what you mean, though, as to there being no choice after you rid yourself of the conditioning. I dunno, maybe you just didn't like "would you kindly".
Plus I thought the evil ending sucked and was a total non-sequitir. _________________
Gender: Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 6077 Status: Moderator
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:40 am Post subject:
Carlo Von Sexron wrote:
Well there's the thing, you see, for the majority of the game you're not presented with any choices because as far as the story is concerned your character is not able to make them.
I can see what you mean, though, as to there being no choice after you rid yourself of the conditioning. I dunno, maybe you just didn't like "would you kindly".
A man chooses, a slave obeys. You're stuck as a slave. Wouldn't it have been totally cool if you could break the spell without Tenenbaum's help?
I'm just sayin' is all. I love the game, and it's a great story, but I guess I wish I had a little more control over the outcome, looking back on it. _________________ Come into my den let me hear you cluck
You can be my hen and we can f(Bu-GAWK)
A bite to the leg, it's time to play
Baby, let me be your egg that needs to get laid.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
"The Chicken of Lust"
Gender: Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 685 Status: User
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject:
I hate games with multiple endings. They annoy the piss out of me. It becomes more about trying to get the "best" or "canonical" ending, rather than having any sort of feeling of having control of the plot.
Gender: Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 2135 Status: User Location: goodness I have dropped the constitution
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject:
Its_The_Sneak!!! wrote:
Carlo Von Sexron wrote:
Well there's the thing, you see, for the majority of the game you're not presented with any choices because as far as the story is concerned your character is not able to make them.
I can see what you mean, though, as to there being no choice after you rid yourself of the conditioning. I dunno, maybe you just didn't like "would you kindly".
A man chooses, a slave obeys. You're stuck as a slave. Wouldn't it have been totally cool if you could break the spell without Tenenbaum's help?
I'm just sayin' is all. I love the game, and it's a great story, but I guess I wish I had a little more control over the outcome, looking back on it.
Well yeah, I think I sort of agree with you. I'm just saying that the would you kindly twist explains away most of the linearity.
Would have been cool though if once you break through all the compulsions the game presents you with a bunch more choices.
The good ending was nice and all but really it was the only satisfying choice. The evil ending just didn't follow at all. You harvest some little girls and then all of a sudden you're out for world domination? Where was the indication that it would lead to that, I mean, there's never any hint that your being evil might lead to you taking over the world.
I think actually a really good "bad" ending would have been if you were stuck as a Big Daddy for the rest of forever, wandering the halls of Rapture looking for the Sisters that will never come (they're dead, you killed them all you bastard) until the city finally deteriorates and the sea claims it back.
Final shot: the water rises above your helmet as the yellow lights flicker off. Game over, turns out being evil has consequences. _________________
Gender: Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 1355 Status: User
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject:
Carlo Von Sexron wrote:
I think actually a really good "bad" ending would have been if you were stuck as a Big Daddy for the rest of forever, wandering the halls of Rapture looking for the Sisters that will never come (they're dead, you killed them all you bastard) until the city finally deteriorates and the sea claims it back.
Final shot: the water rises above your helmet as the yellow lights flicker off. Game over, turns out being evil has consequences.
Gender: Joined: 06 May 2006 Posts: 2136 Status: User
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject:
ZealousDemon wrote:
I hate games with multiple endings. They annoy the piss out of me. It becomes more about trying to get the "best" or "canonical" ending, rather than having any sort of feeling of having control of the plot.
So the best way to feel that you control the plot of the game is having one, unvariable outcome, regardless of what happens before it? That makes zero sense whatsoever.
Gender: Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 2135 Status: User Location: goodness I have dropped the constitution
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:00 am Post subject:
Homestarrunnernet wrote:
Carlo Von Sexron wrote:
I think actually a really good "bad" ending would have been if you were stuck as a Big Daddy for the rest of forever, wandering the halls of Rapture looking for the Sisters that will never come (they're dead, you killed them all you bastard) until the city finally deteriorates and the sea claims it back.
Final shot: the water rises above your helmet as the yellow lights flicker off. Game over, turns out being evil has consequences.
Time go to apply for a job at 2K Games, Jordan.
I thought it was going to be the obvious evil ending. _________________
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